Credit Balance Insurance…Are you paying this on your credit card & didn’t know? Check!

 

 

 

Editor’s Note: After asking BMO(Bank of Montreal) for proof that I signed a contract for Balance Protection Insurance on my Mosaik Mastercard, they wrote me a letter saying they could not find proof (their phone record, which I don’t consider sufficient but anyways, whose to argue with a refund?), so they were refunding my whole 7 years of money…Total refund from BMO Mosaik Mastercard for Balance Protection Insurance? $2,443.33 …Now I am waiting for Td Bank to answer me, (TD Visa)…TD Canada Trust says they found a phone record, but I say that is not good enough to establish a contract…Let’s see how this goes…They owe me $2,684.70 …

 

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2009/credit_card_catch/main.html Watch this video on CBC Marketplace about trying to get your money back on credit card balance insurance that you didn’t know you were paying…One lady gets a full refund when she asks for proof that she signed up for this…(RBC)

An email to (PC Financial) the ombudsman of one credit card company gives a client a full refund plus interest charges plus 25,000 President’s Choice points…for good will…

One person got half her money back after she said she never signed anything but they said she agreed over the phone…(Vancity Visa)…

Someone else wrote in & said agreements over the phone are a joke & that is why people are getting their money back…

Check your credit card balance over the past few months, years…If you see balance protection ins. charges then you too are paying without knowing…& contrary to popular belief, even if you lose your job they only pay the minimum monthly balance 3%, certainly not the whole thing as you might have assumed…

I myself have asked TD bank & BMO credit card insurance companies for my money back…I will post results when I get them…

here is the letter/email I sent out today to both TD Toronto Dominion Bank Visa & Bank of Montreal BMO Mosaic Mastercard (You are welcome to use this letter yourself, but of course fill in the correct year the Balance protection insurance got activated, your correct name address telephone email address, & the correct name of the Bank & the bank ombudsman’s correct email address…)

Subject line: Balance Protection Insurance Credit Card charges not authorized:

From:

name, email

To:

ombudsman at credit card company (BMO Mosaic Mastercard & TD Visa credit card in this case)

Date:

Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:35 PM (less than a minute ago)

Dear Ombudsman-

  This is a copy of a letter I wrote to TD Visa, who did the exact same thing in the same year (2004), as BMO Mosaic Mastercard did…I changed the words TD Visa to BMO in order for it to make better sense…Since it is the exact same situation with both companies, I am using the same letter…Some details may be slightly different, like the name of the person I dealt with, or how they said they would get back to me- BMO said they would answer me in writing & did not state over the phone that they were looking for phone records, but I assume the procedures are similar for both companies…

  I am asking for a reversal of all balance protection charges from BMO Mosaic mastercard & from TD Visa credit card…Both apparentlly activated in 2004- so I assume this “scam” or “ploy” was all the rage in 2004…

  Please ignore this letter if charges have already been reversed, or the process to do so is happening already…

  if not, please help to ameliorate the resonse for me…

  I am quite upset with the amount of money that has gone out unknowingly…(In fact, I don’t know the amounts exactly at all)…

  Thank you, my name

My email address is ———-@—— , please answer in writing rather than phoning…

Hello,

this email is for the BMO Ombudsman/ombudsmen:

My name on my credit card (maiden name) is ____ ——

My address is ______ —— ____

___——, Ontario,_____—-My phone number is —-____—-

My email address is ____@——-

My problem:

I discovered Balance Protection insurance on my credit card statement recently, not knowing I even had this service…

Later, I found out it had been activated in 2004 when the card was activated…

I was told by someone in insurance that they would check phone records & get back to me…I am not comfortable with this handling of my case, as I have

nothing in writing, no contract that  had signed, & I do not consider a phone call recording adequate proof of informed consent…What I mean to say is

that whether or not I said yes to something over the phone to an opportunistic salesperson, does not constitute informed consent as I understand it to be

required in the financial services sector…I obviously was not aware of this service for the past 7 years, I obviously did not want, & I obviously did not

understand it at all…I am self-employed to begin with & have no possibility of ever losing my job…The death or disability aspect is something I am not

interested in, & I am to understand from watching Wendy Mesley’s Marketplace series on this very subject that balance protection insurance merely

covers 3% or the monthly minimum, not the full balance as apparently 51% of surveyed believe…Also, according to the program which aired in 2009, a

full 21% of people did not even know this charge was on their credit card bill in the first place…Which implies again not informed consent at all…

  I am aware that RBC refunded the full amount of charges to the lady on the program who was in the same position as me…

  I cannot get the business service office on the phone, nor anybody else for that matter, today, this Monday, all I am getting is a music tape…I did get

some sort of voicemail message stating that somebody had made a “decision”, but that the person “Mike” would be away this week…I have no idea

what the “decision” is, but when I spoke the first time, it was implied that they were going to search phone records for proof…This is not acceptable to me

at all as a means to make a “decision”…Again, whether or not BMO Mosaic Mastercard has a verbal yes over the phone does not constitute legal

informed consent,

nor do I have any proof in writing with full explanation above my signature of the repercussions & low balnce minimum payment etc. that comes with this

most expensive program…

  I am shocked that this practice is considered fraudlent, scam, or con & has been banned in England outright…I have been a good customer of BMO for

a

very long time & am disheartened to find a dubious practice has been used to garner monies from me…

  I’d appreciate a full reversal of any & all charges since 2004 on my BMO Mosaic Mastercard card…If not I will have to investigate my position in small claims court as

well as continuing my own reports on this most distressing situation to the online visitors of various my blogs & websites…

 Thank you for your time & consideration of this matter,

  I will not sit on hold for 20 minutes, only to be told the person who made the “decision” is away for the week, & then be told matter of factly that a phone

record with me saying yes to something that obviously was not explained to me fully, & minus any proof of signature & explanation in writing, is sufficient

for you to discard me…

  I expect restitution of monies charged to me by this balance protection insurance & I do not expect any sort of “decision” or whatnot…The matter is clear- Bank of Montreal has taken money from me that does not belong to them & the business practices surrounding the matter are such that criminal activity is suspected…

 Please answer me here in writing at —–@——- …A phone call is not sufficient & never has been…

My married name is —-______…(I kept the card in my maiden name)…

Thank you, —____

After speaking with Duncan who was passed off to me from Mike, both at Toronto Dominion Business Services, I was passed off to Alyssia at customer service in Td Financial Insurance division, who by the way, was who the TD ombudsman also passed me off to…The amount I had paid unknowingly into Balance protection Insurance since 2004 was $2,684.70….!!!

  Alyssia at customer service called me back to tell me that that TD goes by the verbal on the phone assent, to which I asserted that a phone assent is not sufficient to create informed consent nor a binding contract without me having signed off on any papers that stated clearly that I understood the nature of the contract…

 When I asked if they were giving me a settlement or not, or should I just go to small claims court, the media, the press, & publicize this online, I was told that the matter was under investigation…

COMPLAINT ACTIVITY REPORT  Case # 1236491 Better Business Bureau of Mid-Western and Central Ontario

Consumer Info: Grove, Sari Business Info: Toronto Dominion Bank – ***HO***

Address   P O Box 1, 19th Floor Toronto-Dominion Centre

Toronto, ON  Postal code  Toronto, ON  M5K 1A2

-        – 888 361-0319

Location Involved: (Same as above)

Consumer’s Original Complaint :

The amount of $2,684.70 was debited from my TD Visa credit card based solely on a phone conversation in the year 2004…No formal written contract was sent to me, no signature of informed consent was given by me, in fact nothing in writing ever occurred to confirm any over the phone assent to a service titled “Balance protection Insurance”…Because I did not sign anything to confirm this service on paper, I was unaware that this service was being debited from my credit card…When my husband went to do accounting paperwork, he thought the charges were interest charges…In fact he did not know what the charges were…neither did I…One week ago he asked me about a charge for $47.37 on our monthly bill…I called & was alerted to the fact that I had been paying for a service for 7 years that I had no idea I had…When I did an internet search on this subject I found a program Marketplace with Wendy Mesley in 2009 where this specific semi-criminal practice by Credit Card Insurance companies was scrutinized…In the case of RBC, a lady got all her charges reversed in exactly the same situation…Apparently 21% of people surveyed said they did not know they were paying for this Balance protection Insurance & 51% were misinformed thinking it would pay out the whole balance in the case of a claim- in fact it only pays 3%, a monthly minimum only…In England I discovered this entire industry, the Balance protection insurance vehicle on credit cards was banned as being completely illegal…The fact that I signed nothing on paper should be enough for me to get my monies back or at the very least some sort of partial settlement…TD Financial is stating that a verbal assent is sufficient to create a informed consent contract over the phone…I disagree as I was not informed, my consent was obviously not informed, my confirmation on paper was never requested nor given & I feel that this is a total scam to be honest…I am guessing other complaints have been filed & suspect a class action lawsuit may be the next step if I cannot get my money back…I believe this balance protection Insurance was taken from me like any normal theft or con, & that TD Visa, Toronto Dominion Bank & Toronto Dominion Insurance Company should be held up to the public as cheating its customers…Also I am self-employed, so could never possibly make a claim that I lost my job…Whether I consent to something over the phone, always I get something in the mail later that requires my signature to be returned to the company…The fat that this never happened, nor any sort of renewal notice or reminder question says to me that TD Visa is practicing bad business…

Consumer’s Desired Resolution:

I am seeking a full refund of $2,684.70 …  I will consider a partial settlement if that is the best that they can do…I am prepared to proceed legally & am considering my options vis a vis a Class action lawsuit, a return to MarketPlace for a follow-up story on TD Visa & other financial institutions in Canada such as BMO who also have this balance protection Insurance on credit cards, & also, a continuing documentation of the results of this problem on my various public blogs & websites on the internet…  As a sidenote, I have approximately $2,000.00 owing on my TD Visa at the moment…If the amount owing at the time of settlement is cleared I will consider the matter settled…& closed…Thank you for your time & attention & consideration, & thank you for allowing me an outlet to vent my anger, & general illness that I am feeling concerning this theft…

BBB Processing 

2011-08-22   web BBB Complaint Received by BBB

To: Paul W. Huyer, Ombudsman

TD Office of the Ombudsman

Hello,

I recently discovered that I was paying Balance Protection Insurance on my TD Visa card since 2004…Unknowingly…The amount accrued is apparently $2,684.70 …

I don’t remember signing anything…There doesn’t seem to be any written proof either that TD Insurance has…

I obviously do not fulfill the requirements for “informed consent”, as required by the Financial sector, insofar as I didn’t know I was paying for this service, am self-employed & could never file a claim against job loss, do not understand any of the details about the program such as the fact that apparently it only pays a minimum monthly 3% if you do lose your job (which has not ever been applicable to me because I have always been self-employed anyways)…

Any other insurance policies that I have signed for have always included a phone conversation where I ask for coverage, then something arrives in the mail that I have to sign & mail back to confirm…As well, all products, not just insurance products, that I have used, involve a yearly reminder or renewal request with the option of non-renewal or termination at each year end…

TD Visa has not obtained either signed paper confirmation from me, nor have they ever asked on a yearly basis for renewal or termination of this policy, which I did not know I was paying for…

I am also concerned that this Balance Protection Insurance has been deemed illegal in England, which says to me that the practice is in fact bordering on criminal…

I am in debt around $2,000.00 on my TD Visa currently, which I now know is due to this Balance Insurance thing going on my bills…I cannot make a claim due to job loss because I am self-employed…So this program is completely useless to me & I should never have been paying into it, which points to the fact that I never signed anything in writing, which would have INFORMED me of what the program covered or didn’t & that it was inadvisable for me…

Apparently there is a phone recording of me agreeing to this program…I do not consider a verbal yes informed consent…I consider a verbal telephone yes to merely be a window for the company to send me more information with a form to fill out with my signature on it to be mailed back, indicating that I understand & agree to terms which were spelled out to me only briefly in an assumptive salesperson’s closing call…

The predatory nature of this insurance vehicle, the way it is sold, has been discussed in an episode of Marketplace in 2009 by Wendy Mesley of CBC…I watched the video online recently after doing a search of this problem…Statistics mentioned were that a full 23% of surveyed DID NOT EVEN KNOW they were paying for the balance protection insurance…51% did not understand it does not pay off the FULL Balance…Both numbers indicate again a lack of Informed Consent, which is a requirement in the Financial services industry for creating a contract…

I suspect a class action lawsuit against the banks participating in said programs could easily be filed…Notwithstanding I am looking for a full refund of my monies…I have a paralysed mother-in-law & a veteran father-in-law, with disabled adoptive children as dependents who could sure use more money sent to them…The money that TD Visa has taken from me is being taken directly from them as that is where our money goes to when we can…

I hope I don’t have to proceed further to get my money back…You & I both know that balance protection insurance is a scam & that the selling tactics to get an over the phone yes are the works of a con artist not an honest salesperson…The fact that nothing got signed on paper, nor any renewal reminders just points to how this thievery is perpetuated…

Sari Grove (nee Slatt)

grove@sent.com

416-924-9725 (please respond by email however)

McMurrich street, Toronto

p.s. My husband was handling the accounting for the past 7 years & the words Balance protection ins. that showed up on the credit card bills occasionally, did not register as an unusual charge…Apparently many people experience the same confusion, thinking it is interest charges or some banking service fee, of course, I am sure, this is on purpose by those who have created this surreptitious vehicle…

The lack of Informed consent on a telephone conversation that is being used by TD Visa balance protection Insurance vehicle on credit card to prove informed consent…:

Consent: “However, if the recording is for commercial purposes, such as the recording of customer service calls, the knowledge and consent of the individual is required. (Some consent exceptions mayapply, but should not be relied upon unless you have specific legal advice.)” excerpt written by a Canadian privacy lawyer: Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (aka PIPEDA)…

  In 2004, when the phone recording was made, I was UNAWARE that the phone call was being recorded, nor was I aware that that phone call recording was the sole basis for some sort of contract to buy an insurance vehicle that was completely inappropriate for a self-employed individual…Was it stated during the call that this phone call constituted the sole contract between me & Td Insurance for this balance credit card insurance policy??? 

Money: When my credit limit was $1000.00 in 2004 the insurance vehicle apparently became active…When the terms of my credit card, the credit limit was increased, the insurance vehicle was not pointed out, nor renegotiated…It should have been…There is a considerable difference between 94 cents on every 100 dollars if the cap is 9.40 a month if the limit is held, as compared to 94 cents on a 7,400.00 limit…Which is somewhere under 74 dollars a month, for an insurance vehicle I did not need, want, nor was properly informed about, nor did I give any WRITTEN authorization for…

Lack of Informed Consent: Was the FULL list of terms & exceptions, including the fact that a self-employed person could NEVER make a claim for this balance insurance based on job loss,  read to the client over the phone? Was the fact that the balance insurance did NOT cover the full balance owing but merely 3% (the minimum balance monthly)??? Was it made clear over the phone that NOTHING in writing to be signed & returned to the insurance company would arrive in the snail mail??? Did the customer REALLY understand the consequences of this balance protection insurance to the degree that the legal requirement of INFORMED CONSENT as required by the Financial Services industry was fulfilled? Based on the fact that the client did not even KNOW that she had this insurance vehicle on her credit card bill indicates lack of informed consent during the telephone call…

Lack of Qualification: As a self-employed artist, I have always been self-employed…I do not qualify for balance protection in the case of job loss…Was this explained to me during the phone conversation?

Conclusion: Balance Protection Insurance on credit cards such as TD Visa are a well known dirty insurance product, sold over the phone with an assumptive close & negative fulfillment meaning that if you do not cancel the program you are enrolled, instead of positive fulfillment where you have to sign up in writing to enroll… The entire product should be declared illegal & all monies returned to unsuspecting innocents who were conned over the phone & now find themselves in huge debt due to a program that was supposed to prevent such circumstance…I myself am out $2,684.70 from TD Visa taking money from my credit card without me being aware of the charges…I am not alone… (Wednesday August 24, 2011- sent to Paul Huyer at TD Visa, the ombudsman…)(attempted to file with complaints board but unusually their server timed out as I was filing?)…

Photo: Photo attached is of complainant, a self-employed artist who was scammed by Td Visa's balance protection insurance vehicle-over the phone & is currently seeking a reversal of all charges, that she did not even know she was paying & could never make a claim on for job loss due to her status as self-employed...

Complaint: My complaint is my huge debt caused by TD Visa’s balance protection insurance…It could be ameliorated by reversing the charges…It could be further ameliorated by making this insurance vehicle illegal in Canada…It is already illegal in Britain…

re:request for an mp3 file duplicate to be emailed to grove@sent.com …

From:

“Joseph & Sari Grove” <grovecanada@fastmail.fm>

To:

“Td Ombudsman” <td.ombudsman@td.com>

Date:

Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:47 PM (less than a minute ago)

View as text - Show original

Show full header

For Paul W. Huyer,

Td ombudsman,

I was in a Td bank today across from the ManuLife centre…I spoke to a manager Lauren, who called & spoke to Sean, who then I spoke to, & then I was passed on to a “manager” at easyline phone centre named Amir…All of these people told me they had not enough authority to reverse my charges…

I was wondering: In a “normal” contract, both parties get a signed copy…A duplicate is made of the signature of the client with the explanation of terms on the paper…

If, in fact, this Td Visa is saying that they consider a telephone solicitation to be a “contract”, then how come I never got a “copy” of said contract?

In correct business, a contract is given to both parties…Thus, in order for a contract, if you can call a telephone solicitation a contract, which I do not by the way, but bearing in mind that I am not dealing with a fair business practice, for the sake of argument, where was MY COPY OF THe CONTRACT?

If the “contract” is an audio recording, then I should have been given a copy of that audio recording for my records…I do not have such a file…

It is easy to make an MP3 file, or wave file from an audio recording & email it to the client as an attachment…Music has been sent this way daily for over a decade much to the chagrin of the recording industry…Any moron with a computer , an email box, & an audio file can easily send a duplicate audio file…

I was not given a copy of this so-called “contract”…

For the sake of my lawyer, & for the sake of all those who I have involved, I would like now a copy of my “contract” so to speak, if TD Visa is calling it that…

I would like a copy so that we on my end can listen to the entire audio file…

 When I prosecute TD Visa for theft & unfair business practices & fraud, I need that audio file to be listened to by my lawyer & any judge & other interested parties…

I also need that audio file should anyone online on my blogs & websites want to listen…I would like everyone in Canada & beyond to hear this file…

 For the record (no pun intended), the fact that I was not given a copy of this “contract” indicates a fault on the side of Td Visa…Both parties to any contract must have an original or duplicate at the very least at the time of “signing”…

 The lack of such recording means that I never got my “contract”…This alone implies a lack of legal consent or legal business practice…

I am sure that a class action lawsuit would result in millions being refunded by banks, much in the same way this insurance product was both banned in England & all charges reversed…

 I suppose TD Visa could choose to reimburse me all charges on this balance protection thing & quietly terminate the program while refunding any monies to any smart people who came forward, leaving those who did not come forward to suffer the exploitation…

 I am not sure if that is a fair outcome, but for the moment I am only concerned with my own charges being reversed…

 The interest on that money should be paid back to me as well, but that is probably another 2 hours of talking…

I am presently carrying a balance on that TD Visa of approximately two thousand dollars I think…As I have recently found out, this debt was caused by this ridiculous product that I did not need, want, or could even make a claim against, ever…

 In the past 10 years, with the various myriad of charges mentioned only by acronyms or diminuatives on bills, my husband & I were just paying whenever we could- not always knowing which website provider was going under what name exactly- as the days of internet purchases have made names somewhat nebulous…We strived to check charges against what names we knew- but companies nowadays don’t use the same name on bills as they do in their branding…

 To be honest, I don’t know if I am dealing with TD Visa, TD bank, TD Canada trust, or something called Easyline? Or TD Insurance or Td Financial…

Not to mention, do I say Toronto Dominion Canada trust? Balance protection Insurance, this thing we didn’t realise we were paying for shows up as “Balance Protection” minus the word Insurance…I am guessing the word “insurance” would have helped us to know what the heck this thing was…

 Please ask whoever you forward these words to to send me an mp3 file of my so-called “audio contract” as I should have been sent 7 years ago…

I’d like to hear it & so would my lawyer…

Again, the fact that this is the first time I will be receiving MY copy of the “contract” is a reason in itself for the bank to reverse all my charges…

Both parties of a contract get a copy- audio or written…Sorry, that is the law…

Good day Sir & thank you for intervening on my behalf, if in fact you are…I am most grateful in advance for your kind help in this matter…I entreated Amir in the call centre to understand that the correct thing to do with a client is “to do the right thing”…

Let’s hope these young people have a crisis of conscience in their bid to squeeze out as many commissions on telephone solicitation sales as possible per hour…

Let’s hope some human decency prevails in this mess…How embarassing for the bank…

Sari Grove (nee Slatt)

GroveCanada.com

Can you make “Balance Protection Insurance” on bank credit cards illegal in Toronto, & get all exploited consumers their charges reversed, like in England…Please?

What follows are two answers to the issue of phone conversations being misrepresented as “contracts”, both answers clearly indicate by a lawyer & a non-lawyer, that a phone conversation is almost never possible to be considered in any way shape or form a contract without several conditions being fulfilled:

Accepted Answer

Hi,

Thanks for your question.

The above is a little confusing. If you are referring to purchasing a plot of land, generally, a solicitor would be involved and teh transaction would not complete unless funds had been provided by the purchaser or his lender.

From the information you have provided above, I cannot see how you can purchase a plot of land wothout entering into a formal agreement and intructing solicitors.

In any event, the plot of land would have to be registered at H.M. Land Registry and it is not possible to do this in a day over the telephone.

I hope this answers your question. If so, kindly click accept.

If you wish to discuss, please feel free to ask further questions.

Kind regards,

Expert:	INC
Pos. Feedback:	98.7 %
Accepts:	3480
Answered:	6/25/2009

Solicitor-Advocate

LL.B, Pg Dip, LL.M, Higher Rights Advocate (Civil), M.B.A (Undertaking)

Ask this Expert a Question >

Improve

Yes it is possible, however many requirements must be met in order to establish an oral contract on the basis of this telephone conversation. Both parties must be aware that they are engaging in contract, both parties must have authority to enter into contract, there must be consideration, meeting of the minds and so on… If you feel that you need a legal remedy, then I suggest you contact a local attorney and relay the story to her.

From:

“Joseph & Sari Grove” <grovecanada@fastmail.fm>

To:

info@bobrae.ca

Date:

Thu, 25 Aug 2011 8:52 AM (less than a minute ago)

View as text - Show original

Show full header

For Bob Rae,

Member of Parliament for Toronto centre

Dear Hon. Sir, 

Can you make “Balance Protection Insurance” on bank credit cards illegal in Toronto, & get all exploited consumers their charges reversed, like in England…Please?

Details: 

  Apparently in 2004, after a telephone conversation, when a new plastic credit card was activated , I was signed up for something on my Toronto Dominion Visa credit card called “balance protection Insurance”…I am told that this type of insurance vehicle has been banned in England, & banks had to reverse all charges & pay back exploited customers…This same product is still being sold in Canada…I did not realise this thing was on my credit card bills, because I did not know I was signed up for it, never having signed & sent in any signature or form…The company is calling their audio file of our phone conversation “a contract”…But I never got a copy of this “contract” for my records…This policy is also something I cannot qualify for because it covers a claim against job loss, but I have always been self-employed & could never file a claim this way…because the charge comes & goes & varies depending or not if you carry a balance, neither me nor my husband caught it…It shows up on the credit card statement as “Balance protection”, not using the word “Insurance” at all…I have been writing emails to the bank ombudsman, spoke to people at a phone centre over the phone & went to a branch of the bank in person & spoke to a manager…It appears this whole insurance thing is being handled by a phone centre…I am being given the runaround so to speak…As you may know, this insurance vehicle is purely exploitative & provides no benefits to the consumer, even if they knowingly signed up…I am concerned with the notion that a verbal yes over the phone without any sort of signed written documents returned to the bank is being pushed forward as a “contract”…& again, in most cases, both parties get a copy of said contract, signed, for their records, to know what they agreed to-which I do not have…An mp3 file of the audio by email would have helped…I am looking for a reversal of all charges to the tune of $2,684.70 Canadian currency…

More Information: 

http://grovecanada.wordpress.com/2011/08/21/credit-balance-insurance-are-you-paying-this-on-your-credit-card-didnt-know-check/

This is a link to my blog post that contains the files of my sent conversations already, including this one…It has further details in case anyone needs them…

If you can help me at all, that would be much appreciated…

Sari Grove (nee Slatt)

grove@sent.com 

BBB Complaint Case#1236491(Ref#32-18602-1236491-3-200)

From:

“Better Business Bureau” <kitchener.nat@bureaudata.com> [Add]

To:

“Mrs Sari Grove” <grove@sent.com>

Date:

Thu, 25 Aug 2011 8:37 AM (24 mins 57 seconds ago)

View as text – Show original

Show full header

Complaint ID#: 1236491

Business Name: Toronto Dominion Bank – ***HO***

Thank you for contacting your BBB. Your complaint was received by your BBB on August 24, 2011 and has been assigned case # 1236491in our files. Please make a note of this number for future reference.

Please note the personal information gathered by your BBB and in any subsequent submissions you make is collected for use by your BBB of Mid-Western and Central Ontario for the sole purpose of assisting you with your complaint. You will not be placed on any mailing lists. Any personal information you give us will only be used for the purpose of complaint Conciliation, Mediation, Arbitration and/or investigating the business practices of this business. You are consenting to the sharing of the information you submit, to the business in question, any government ministry (federal or provincial), agency, board or commission, any self-regulatory body or association and any law enforcement agency.

Your complaint has been applied to the following business:

Toronto Dominion Bank – ***HO***

P O Box 1, 19th Floor Toronto-Dominion Centre

Toronto, ON M5K 1A2

The case has been reviewed by one of our Complaint Specialists and has now been forwarded to the business for their response. Please make note that the process may take up to six weeks to obtain a response from the company.

We encourage you to use our ONLINE COMPLAINT system to keep up with the progress of this complaint. To view the details of your case click https://mwco.app.bbb.org/complaint/view/1236491/c/n3dd6v.

Sincerely,

Natacha Scott

Complaint Administrator

BBB Complaint Department

natacha@mwco.bbb.org

https://mwco.app.bbb.org/complaint/view/1236491/c/n3dd6v

I have now, on Thursday, August 25, 2011 spoken with:

An unknown person at TD Visa in unknown charges of my credit card bill department who forwarded me to Td Insurance…

Someone at Td Insurance who cancelled this unknown policy & started an “investigation”

Someone named Mike who left me a voicemail saying he was going on vacation for a week…he was in phone records…

Someone named Duncan who works for MIke at phone records…

Someone named Alyssia of customer service at phone records…Who said the ombudsman has been forwarding stuff to her desk…

A Bank manager named Lauren at TD Canada Trust at Bay & Bloor street, who I spoke to in person, who got someone

named Sean on the phone, who I spoke to, who

got someone named Amir on the phone who said he was a manager of Easyline the phone centre, but said he did not have authority to reverse my charges, but that he would pass on this information to

his supervisor…as yet unnamed…

BBB CASE#: 1236491

Complaint filed by:	Sari Grove    (More)
Complaint filed against:	Toronto Dominion Bank – ***HO***    (More)
Complaint status:	Inform Business of Complaint     (More)
Case Description:	The amount of $2,684.70 was debited from my TD Visa credit card based solely on a phone conversation in the…     (More)
Category:	Contract Issues
Case opened date:	2011-08-24
Case closed date:
Desired Resolution:	I am seeking a full refund of $2,684.70 … I will consider a partial settlement if that is the…     (More)

BBB CASE#: 1236491

Complaint filed by:	Sari Grove    (More)
Complaint filed against:	Toronto Dominion Bank – ***HO***    (More)
Complaint status:	Inform Business of Complaint     (More)
Case Description:	The amount of $2,684.70 was debited from my TD Visa credit card based solely on a phone conversation in the year 2004…No formal written contract was sent to me, no signature of informed consent was given by me, in fact nothing in writing ever occurred to confirm any over the phone assent to a service titled “Balance protection Insurance”…Because I did not sign anything to confirm this service on paper, I was unaware that this service was being debited from my credit card…When my husband went to do accounting paperwork, he thought the charges were interest charges…In fact he did not know what the charges were…neither did I…One week ago he asked me about a charge for $47.37 on our monthly bill…I called & was alerted to the fact that I had been paying for a service for 7 years that I had no idea I had…When I did an internet search on this subject I found a program Marketplace with Wendy Mesley in 2009 where this specific semi-criminal practice by Credit Card Insurance companies was scrutinized…In the case of RBC, a lady got all her charges reversed in exactly the same situation…Apparently 21% of people surveyed said they did not know they were paying for this Balance protection Insurance & 51% were misinformed thinking it would pay out the whole balance in the case of a claim- in fact it only pays 3%, a monthly minimum only…In England I discovered this entire industry, the Balance protection insurance vehicle on credit cards was banned as being completely illegal…The fact that I signed nothing on paper should be enough for me to get my monies back or at the very least some sort of partial settlement…TD Financial is stating that a verbal assent is sufficient to create a informed consent contract over the phone…I disagree as I was not informed, my consent was obviously not informed, my confirmation on paper was never requested nor given & I feel that this is a total scam to be honest…I am guessing other complaints have been filed & suspect a class action lawsuit may be the next step if I cannot get my money back…I believe this balance protection Insurance was taken from me like any normal theft or con, & that TD Visa, Toronto Dominion Bank & Toronto Dominion Insurance Company should be held up to the public as cheating its customers…Also I am self-employed, so could never possibly make a claim that I lost my job…Whether I consent to something over the phone, always I get something in the mail later that requires my signature to be returned to the company…The fat that this never happened, nor any sort of renewal notice or reminder question says to me that TD Visa is practicing bad business…    (Less)
Category:	Contract Issues
Case opened date:	2011-08-24
Case closed date:
Desired Resolution:	I am seeking a full refund of $2,684.70 … I will consider a partial settlement if that is the…     (More)

I am seeking a full refund of $2,684.70 …
I will consider a partial settlement if that is the best that they can do…I am prepared to proceed legally & am considering my options vis a vis a Class action lawsuit, a return to MarketPlace for a follow-up story on TD Visa & other financial institutions in Canada such as BMO who also have this balance protection Insurance on credit cards, & also, a continuing documentation of the results of this problem on my various public blogs & websites on the internet…
As a sidenote, I have approximately $2,000.00 owing on my TD Visa at the moment…If the amount owing at the time of settlement is cleared I will consider the matter settled…& closed…Thank you for your time & attention & consideration, & thank you for allowing me an outlet to vent my anger, & general illness that I am feeling concerning this theft…

COMPLAINT ACTIVITY REPORT  Case # 1236491 Better Business Bureau of Mid-Western and Central Ontario

Consumer Info: Grove, Sari Business Info: Toronto Dominion Bank – ***HO***

306-15 McMurrich Street   P O Box 1, 19th Floor Toronto-Dominion Centre

Toronto, ON  M5R 3M6 Toronto, ON  M5K 1A2

-        – 888 361-0319

Location Involved: (Same as above)

Consumer’s Original Complaint :

The amount of $2,684.70 was debited from my TD Visa credit card based solely on a phone conversation in the year 2004…No formal written contract was sent to me, no signature of informed consent was given by me, in fact nothing in writing ever occurred to confirm any over the phone assent to a service titled “Balance protection Insurance”…Because I did not sign anything to confirm this service on paper, I was unaware that this service was being debited from my credit card…When my husband went to do accounting paperwork, he thought the charges were interest charges…In fact he did not know what the charges were…neither did I…One week ago he asked me about a charge for $47.37 on our monthly bill…I called & was alerted to the fact that I had been paying for a service for 7 years that I had no idea I had…When I did an internet search on this subject I found a program Marketplace with Wendy Mesley in 2009 where this specific semi-criminal practice by Credit Card Insurance companies was scrutinized…In the case of RBC, a lady got all her charges reversed in exactly the same situation…Apparently 21% of people surveyed said they did not know they were paying for this Balance protection Insurance & 51% were misinformed thinking it would pay out the whole balance in the case of a claim- in fact it only pays 3%, a monthly minimum only…In England I discovered this entire industry, the Balance protection insurance vehicle on credit cards was banned as being completely illegal…The fact that I signed nothing on paper should be enough for me to get my monies back or at the very least some sort of partial settlement…TD Financial is stating that a verbal assent is sufficient to create a informed consent contract over the phone…I disagree as I was not informed, my consent was obviously not informed, my confirmation on paper was never requested nor given & I feel that this is a total scam to be honest…I am guessing other complaints have been filed & suspect a class action lawsuit may be the next step if I cannot get my money back…I believe this balance protection Insurance was taken from me like any normal theft or con, & that TD Visa, Toronto Dominion Bank & Toronto Dominion Insurance Company should be held up to the public as cheating its customers…Also I am self-employed, so could never possibly make a claim that I lost my job…Whether I consent to something over the phone, always I get something in the mail later that requires my signature to be returned to the company…The fat that this never happened, nor any sort of renewal notice or reminder question says to me that TD Visa is practicing bad business…

Consumer’s Desired Resolution:

I am seeking a full refund of $2,684.70 …  I will consider a partial settlement if that is the best that they can do…I am prepared to proceed legally & am considering my options vis a vis a Class action lawsuit, a return to MarketPlace for a follow-up story on TD Visa & other financial institutions in Canada such as BMO who also have this balance protection Insurance on credit cards, & also, a continuing documentation of the results of this problem on my various public blogs & websites on the internet…  As a sidenote, I have approximately $2,000.00 owing on my TD Visa at the moment…If the amount owing at the time of settlement is cleared I will consider the matter settled…& closed…Thank you for your time & attention & consideration, & thank you for allowing me an outlet to vent my anger, & general illness that I am feeling concerning this theft…

BBB Processing 

2011-08-22   web BBB Complaint Received by BBB

2011-08-24   DEBI BBB Complaint Validated by BBB Operator

2011-08-24   Otto EMAIL Send Acknowledgement to Consumer

2011-08-24   Otto EMAIL Inform Business of Complaint

2011-08-26   NAT BBB RECEIVE BUSINESS RESPONSE : From: Ombudsman, Td

Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 10:34 AM

To: ‘Better Business Bureau’

Subject: RE: Your email dated August 25, 2011

August 25, 2011

Natacha Scott

—————-

Re : Sari Grove

Dear Ms. Scott:

We acknowledge receipt of your email dated August 25, 2011, which we received in our office on the same day.

As you may be aware, the Bank is prohibited by Federal Privacy Legislation from providing information about their clients to third parties without their specific written direction to do so.  That being said, we would like to advise you that we have received an email from Ms. Grove and will respond directly to her regarding her concerns.

Thank you for taking the time to contact our office.

Yours truly,

Leocadia Reis

Office of the Ombudsman

2011-08-26   NAT EMAIL Forward Business response to Consumer

2011-08-29   WEB BBB RECEIVED CONSUMER REBUTTAL : (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)

My complaint to the BBB  is not merely for a refund, but that TD Insurance, has sold a bundled package of Insurance to TD Visa, who is reselling this in pieces to credit card customers using unfair business practices…See below:

Unfair, Con, Scam, Bad business, Exploitative, Predatory, Illegal: The balance protection Insurance product you see on your credit card statement but don’t know what it is for…

From:

“Joseph & Sari Grove” <grovecanada@fastmail.fm>

To:

grove@sent.com

Date:

Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:14 AM (1 hour 29 minutes ago)

View as text – Show originalShow full header

Bibliography: some excerpts taken from: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11311.pdf

Editor’s comments: Sari Grove

For example, when a cardholder dies and leaves no net assets, the cardholder’s heirs do not automatically become personally liable for any outstanding credit card debt. Thus, the loss-of-life benefit of a debt protection product may be of limited value to cardholders with no net assets.

Similarly, cardholders with certain disabilities would not benefit from the disability coverage bundled into a product because of the exclusions in most products’ terms and conditions.

They note that consumers considering purchasing these products might be better off using the amount they would pay in monthly fees toward paying down their credit card balance, particularly if they are accruing significant interest.

For instance, short-form (oral) disclosures for telephone sales must include the product’s fee and the fact that it is optional and require that additional written disclosures be mailed within 3 business days of purchase. (editor’s note: Those written disclosures should not merely be a printed pamphlet about the policy, or it might get thrown out by the consumer as advertising- written disclosures should arrive in the mail with indication tying the snail mail to a telephone call somehow or how will the consumer know what it is they are receiving? A cover letter explaining the mailing at the very least, with something to sign or initial & send back, would be better…)

How much will I get?(ed. note: regarding refunds on mis-sold insurance)

If the firm, or the Financial Ombudsman Service, agree that you were mis-sold the insurance, you should get back all the premiums you have paid, with interest added at 8% – the same figure a court would award.

Can I reclaim on any PPI policy?(ed. note: PPI refers to product protector insurance , another name for the same thing…)

Who can reclaim?

The clearest cases of mis-selling are those where customers were sold the insurance when they had no chance of claiming on it.First you need to establish if you have PPI – you may have the insurance without knowing. When attached to a credit card you should be able to see any payments taken for PPI in your statements, but if you have a personal loan it might not be so obvious. Best to contact your lender to find out if you have it.

• If you were not employed at the time you took the insurance – whether you were unemployed, self-employed or retired – it will be impossible for you to make a valid insurance claim.

Do not be put off if the firms replies to say that they disagree and that they are assured the sale was within the rules. We have known cases of firms swearing that sales conversations were recorded that prove a sale was valid, only to back down when challenged to produce the evidence.

(Editor’s note: The fact that the company you may owe money to is selling you a vehicle that they benefit from if you aren’t able to pay them back is dubious at best…It means that whether you pay them back or not whether you are able or not , they will always be taking money from you…That is an unfair business practice & a conflict of interest…)

They know you won’t have had a chance to shop around and will therefore automatically over-price the policy. Use an independent income protection comparison service.Federal regulators’ reviews have generally not addressed the reasonableness of the pricing of debt protection products, although we did identify two cases in which regulators commented on the price. (ed. note: the thing is over priced & offers little if any value…The only reason some people still sell it is because they(inusrance companies & credit card companies & banks) are scamming billions of dollars from vulnerable consumers on it)…

In one case, the regulator noted that debt protection product fees appeared high and recommended that the bank continue reviewing the appropriateness of the fees it charged. Because no regulatory guidance existed on the appropriateness of prices, no formal violations could be cited. In the second case, the regulator noted that the debt protection products’ payout rate to consumers was low compared with the fees collected, but no formal violation was cited. (It was a new unregulated industry & still is…Gov’t's are in bed with insurance companies & this bad product earns billions…So they have been dragging their feet to abolish it…Another conflict of interest is a government trying to regulate an industry that the gov’t itself profits from)…

About 40 percent of these complaints were from customers who claimed they had not knowingly enrolled in the product and 29 percent related to denial of benefits; the remaining complaints related to a variety of other issues. in 2009 the issuers received 2,045 complaints about debt protection products Thirty-four percent of these complaints were classified as “affordability/does n

As seen in figure 4, in 2009 the largest nine issuers reported that they collected $2.4 billion in fees for debt protection products and provided back to consumers $518 million in monetary benefits.5 percent of complaints were related to other issues.

The average direct financial value of this benefit was $607.

As a result, a cardholder with a balance of $20,000 would pay the fee based on that amount even though only $10,000 would be canceled in the event of the cardholder’s death.4

For example, a creditor would not be permitted to enroll a jobless consumer for protection that requires employment as a conditimpletes the purchase. (ed. note: Both are necessary)…

The short-form disclosures must state that consumers will receive additional information before(ed. note: BEFORE THEY PAY) they pay for the product and that certain eligibility requirements(ed. note: like if you are self-employed they can’t sell it to you!), conditions, and exclusions may apply. The rule also prohibits national banks from tying the approval of an extension of credit(ed. note: how many times has the credit card company increased your credit limit & you didn’t know it was helped by the fact that they would earn more money on their balance protection insurance vehicle if they did?) to the consumer’s purchase of a debt protection product. That is, a national bank cannot make its approval of a credit card application contingent upon a consumer’s purchase of a debt protection product.24Other federal laws and regulations may apply to debt protection products.

The Federal Trade Commission Act prohibits unfair or deceptive acts or practices—forexample,engagingindeceptivemarketingpractices.25A cardholder who enrolls in credit insurance typically receives a certificate of insurance, which provides evidence of coverage(ed. note: where is EVIDENCE of coverage mailed to consumer after telephone call?), rather than an insurance policy. This may be in part because of the absence of price controls that states generally impose on credit insurance rates and the nonuniformity of state regulation.

The generally applicable federal law that pertains to debt protection products is the Truth in Lending Act (TILA), which covers the extension of consumercredit.18obtain the consumer’s initials or signature on a written affirmative request for the product after providing the required disclosures. (ed. note: currently no signature or initial is obtained after a phone solicitation, which is illegal actually…)

The regulation that implements TILA’s requirements is the Federal Reserve’s Regulation Z, several provisions of which apply to debt protection products.19 (ed. note: The American system, followed the British system, & the Canadian system followed the American…Of note, the British have already banned this product, the Americans are working on banning it & the Canadians will follow as they always have…Billio

2011-08-29   BBB MORE INFO RECEIVED FROM THE CONSUMER : I got an email on Thursday of last week (today is Monday August 29th, 2001) saying that someone was writing a snail mail letter that I would get in the mail…I have not received this letter yet…The Better Business Bureau requires a response of dissatisfaction within 10 days or the matter is closed…It is noon on Monday & I have no letter in my hand regarding a refund, nor have I received any email or phone call telling me that I got or am getting a refund…The delay in response, making me wait from Thursday of last week, all through the weekend, & now into Monday has caused me considerable stress not to mention ruining my weekend thinking about $2,684.70 that TD Visa has taken from me without me realizing it…I find the lack of timely response as to a refund to be an additional troublesome aspect in TD Visa, TD Bank & Toronto Dominion Life Insurance companies’ business behaviours…When I went to the TD bank at Bay & Bloor in person, it was evident that real bank managers do not handle this TD product, nor does the Td Insurance company, (I should write TD Canada trust actually since they amalgamated in recent years after I opened an account with only TD…) In fact TD Visa themselves do not handle this product protection insurance product either…Apparently this entire product is handled by Third Party outsourced people who do not answer to anybody really but themselves…No last names are given usually & no real position in the bank exists for these freelancers…The salesperson who sold you something over the phone is long gone & there is no accountability as to who those people were to anybody…The entire investigation I asked for was conducted by third party freelancers who work in a phone centre completely detached from TD …No accountability, no responsibility, no credentials-these people selling an insurance product are almost completely anonymous…No physical place where you can complain in person…Nobody in the TD banks know these people & seniority cannot be established by the consumer…This third party phone centre sometimes referred to as Easyline operates as it pleases & does not seem to be regulated by any government body…An investigation into fair business practices of this Easyline Phone Centre would reveal a myriad of transgressions, not to mention a continuous stream of freelancers getting hired, getting fired, getting hired, then quitting, with all the customers’ personal financial information going in & out of their office

2011-08-29   BBB MORE INFO RECEIVED FROM THE CONSUMER : I got an email on Thursday of last week (today is Monday August 29th, 2001) saying that someone was writing a snail mail letter that I would get in the mail…I have not received this letter yet…The Better Business Bureau requires a response of dissatisfaction within 10 days or the matter is closed…It is noon on Monday & I have no letter in my hand regarding a refund, nor have I received any email or phone call telling me that I got or am getting a refund…The delay in response, making me wait from Thursday of last week, all through the weekend, & now into Monday has caused me considerable stress not to mention ruining my weekend thinking about $2,684.70 that TD Visa has taken from me without me realizing it…I find the lack of timely response as to a refund to be an additional troublesome aspect in TD Visa, TD Bank & Toronto Dominion Life Insurance companies’ business behaviours…When I went to the TD bank at Bay & Bloor in person, it was evident that real bank managers do not handle this TD product, nor does the Td Insurance company, (I should write TD Canada trust actually since they amalgamated in recent years after I opened an account with only TD…) In fact TD Visa themselves do not handle this product protection insurance product either…Apparently this entire product is handled by Third Party outsourced people who do not answer to anybody really but themselves…No last names are given usually & no real position in the bank exists for these freelancers…The salesperson who sold you something over the phone is long gone & there is no accountability as to who those people were to anybody…The entire investigation I asked for was conducted by third party freelancers who work in a phone centre completely detached from TD …No accountability, no responsibility, no credentials-these people selling an insurance product are almost completely anonymous…No physical place where you can complain in person…Nobody in the TD banks know these people & seniority cannot be established by the consumer…This third party phone centre sometimes referred to as Easyline operates as it pleases & does not seem to be regulated by any government body…An investigation into fair business practices of this Easyline Phone Centre would reveal a myriad of transgressions, not to mention a continuous stream of freelancers getting hired, getting fired, getting hired, then quitting, with all the customers’ personal financial information going in & out of their office…

Of note: The telephone operator named “Mike” sent me a snail mail letter saying he did not have my telephone number on file…(nothing in writing about me, because no written contract was signed…)(Of course, I got a voicemail from him later that day…)

Someone else in customer service at the phone centre said that she had reviewed my recorded conversation from 2001 & was sending me a snail mail letter as to her decision…(I was told initially, which I assume to be true, that I was enrolled in balance protection insurance in 2004- with no written records, facts are nebulous…)

Another phone centre employee referred to me as MS. Scott in their response to the Better Business Bureau…(again, no contract, nothing in writing, they can’t even get my name right!)

Advertisement